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We completely eliminated smoking on planes twenty+ years ago, but somehow this is treated as natural, rather than as the result of decisions that could be replicated
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I think there’s an easy step between “let them smoke” and “arrest them” which is “have an MTA employee ask them to put out their cigarette.”
Chris Hayes, progressive icon unsure about letting people smoke on the subway, also a caricature of cosmopolitan elite looking down on swing voters
welcomestack.org/p/chris-hayes-
Police could just tell the person to stop smoking without arresting them. Just a thought. Most pewoukd just comply.
One thing missing from your assessment that you see in other countries is public shaming. Kind of the 3rd leg of the stool. Rules on the book, hard enforcement mechanisms, and social stigma.
We should accept that the once promising Chris Hayes is no thought leader and deserves no following.
This perspective of absolute tolerance expressed a contempt for the overwhelming majority of the working poor. They can't evade the symbolic smoker on the platform because they dont have the money for the Uber, the country house to run away to, the doorman building to sleep in.
There's a middle point between arresting someone for smoking and not doing anything, isn't there? People can be fined, expelled from the facility, etc.
fines, suspension of service, community service…feel like the answer to “how do we punish somebody without arresting them” has many obvious answers
Private businesses can sanction people for rule breaking without involving law enforcement (eg, kick them out) in a way public services can't.
I can feel the pains that Chris went to to try and think the right thing, say the right thing.
I need a Tylenol.
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One of the biggest challenges in LA is that as unpopular as the LAPD is with many people here, there are not enough of them. Our little subway and train system are under-policed and notoriously unsafe. There are not enough cops to patrol!
That would be fine if the police would also look the other way when citizens enforce the rules. It might even work better.
You’re basically expressing contempt for the needy, per Chris. His soft, kind language is always the Trojan horse that disguises police state antics - which are anything but kind. Particularly to the dispossessed and needy, in a tragic irony.
this dumbass defeats himself in his post.
he thinks rule breakers are normal humans who maybe break 1 rule (smoking)
Rule breakers break a lot of rules, and cause problems for everyone and this is why our public transportation is disgusting and unusable for people with kids
There is what I call an “audacity factor” whereby the rules are so simple and easy to follow, and provide an optimum environment for all citizens, that your narcissism should be punished five fold over a proportional punishment. Smoking on the subway, as an example, is not
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This is the democrat conundrum: there is a segment of society that will engage in antisocial behavior unless forced otherwise. But they also hate to apply force to people exhibiting antisocial behavior, so they end up not enforcing anything unless grave physical harm results.
The problem is electing Democrats. Cities that do deserve what they get. "Democrats should just become non-Democrats and be pro law and order", good luck with that.
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How about all the other antisocial and criminal behavior? Pissing in the cars, littering, spilling food and drink, assaults, laying down when it’s crowded, screaming, playing loud music, robbing people, etc.
Will Democrats allow those to be policed?
What if making public
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The party that will “be civil when we’re in control” needs to be the party of public order now? GTFO. Your entire party was encouraging the burning of cities while working class middle America was trapped in their f*cking houses.
“Smoking” is an interesting choice for this exercise. If “smoking” is vaping or even a cigarette, then yeah most people don’t want cops involved, the real problem is when people are smoking illicit drugs. Under that example, most people are fine with cops making an arrest.
Why? Why must the Democrats be the party of public order?
Why does it have to be tribal?
Why not let the Democrats do what they do and just vote for the Party that believes in Public Order instead.
Vote principles. Not brand.
My view of US politics, which appeals to few:
*Liberals are good people who do bad things
*Conservatives are bad people who do good things
True defenders of liberty are rare, and who does good or bad historically has often come down to who has power.
But you’re not.
Republicans continue to fight you on this issue. You continue to claim anyone who wants public safety is a Trumpist devil.
And this is why leftists/liberals will keep ruin the cities they govern and eventually the citizens will kick them out of power
Is Chris okay with a homeless guy breaking into his car and smoking inside of it?
There is no good reason for public spaces to be lower quality than private spaces (unless you want to undermine support for taxation and public spaces in general)
It’s essentially the trolley problem but they refuse to pull the lever to run over the one person, so they engage in magical thinking about a third option that avoids the choice entirely - hence those memes where the trolley is launched off the tracks & destroys the “root cause.”
On ome hand, yeah.
On the other, it does seem excessive to call the cops on someone for that type of rule breaking.
It's weird. They're obviously banking on you caring more about them than they do about you.
Standing for increased public order and functional public services is obviously good, but mass transit is an odd example as very few people outside of a few (already blue) localities rely on it.
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It's a small thing, but the number of people watching videos or facetiming on their phones on full volume (no headphones) on public transit or other public areas has gone epidemic in the past ~2 years.
Been reading you for a decade+ ... top respect, though I'm more Friedman family style.
Really?
If I were going to summarize modern Democrat in a sentence:
Some groups are treated badly by the system and we need to protect them.
How can that square?
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Even anarchists believe in the coercion of shunning and removing oneself socially from people. There's always social control even if force and violence is out, you can shun them and chastise them for their bad behavior so they're not comfortable in their nonsense.
Smokers probably would
Given how common they used to be before we changed the laws, a lot of non-smokers are also willing to put up with this
False equivalency. and just blatantly wrong (i.e. yes they would if getting to work on time depended on it).
nah Hayes had it right. mb he failed to recognize the solution right in front of him/us bc we'd been ridiculing it relentlessly for years...
ofc i'm talkin bout Karens.
We need Flock Cameras on every street corner, and fare enforcement on public transportation.
In most countries, the “non-carceral” solution is that the police or transit security issues a fine to people who smoke in the subway.
It’s usually about $100-$500, depending on the country.
There many forms of other punishment, for such behavior which you can escalate.
For example in Gemany:
Social Pressure
Employee of the train sevice gives you a ticket.
Call police-> sending off
if you return, arrest.
I have never seen anybody smoking in a train.
Smoking on the subway is the worst example, it almost never happens. It's been outlawed since 1909, and in 40 years, I've only seen someone do it twice, and that was long ago.
I loathe saying anything positive about him, but maybe Giuliani had a point about broken windows.
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I think the cops need to be harsher on transit criminals, seen way too many climb over the fare gates
The less state you have the more important and vital social sanctions becomes
Odd that this can be construed as a partisan issue instead of — Civilization needs public order and quality public services.
We need substantial fines and eventual jail time even if it’s for just a month or two. It’s ridiculous.
There's a piece here to be written about childcare, discipline, and behavior as well.
smokers are taxpayers too
why do I suspect I'd get further with republicans on arguing for a smoking platform area, or on letting businesses decide whether to allow it
bc implicit in your appeal is the presumption that a blanket ban is inherent to the definition of public order
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It's getting every worse. The sociopaths are now smoking/vaping inside the subway cars. Classic broken windows problem.
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bob's burgers urbanist 
@yhdistyminen
Whenever the subject of punishing people for smoking on public transit comes up, I think of my friend who, exasperatedly, told his 6 year old to brush his teeth right now or else no Playstation for a week
Disproportionate? Yes. But all he had to do was brush his teeth!!!
True if there are other options and riding the subway for many doesn't have an option
They only use coercion to obtain funding; public disorder and low quality services make that coercion easier to argue. Order and quality are not on the list of goals. The team you’re talking about does not function to deliver them, it functions to extract money.
Couldn’t the cops issue like a $150 ticket or something that ratcheted up with # of instances of offense?
Maybe not following basic public order rules, and being courteous to your fellow man is why some of these people are marginalized and needy.
had to spend 
on a study to prove that drugs on buses is bad
That should say enough abt our approach to bad 
but it isn't
It's time for a facilitator to stand up and say, come Portland, you can do better!
Hoping that's but he's being too silent
on a study to prove that drugs on buses is bad
That should say enough abt our approach to bad but it isn't
It's time for a facilitator to stand up and say, come Portland, you can do better!
Hoping that's but he's being too silent
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sorry matty that requires workers with benefits. they’d rather be the party of uber. oh well!
Both sad and hilarious that Leftists have finally come to where their policies meet the road and they have to admit that in their world ANY enforcement of laws is “fascism”!! 
Democrats need to be the party of coercion, to make people follow the rules?
okay; what do we do to the 19 states that don't require a front license plate?
Surely you don't patronize them!?
Totally agree. The only problem is that Democrats have never and will never be that party.
Well there's also a third, much better option—the cops ticket them, not arrest them.
Progressives offering anarchy in place of policy has played out repeatedly. Illegal immigrants, homeless, drug users, riots, sex work, fare evasion, and with low level property crime as well.
The idea that enforcing the rules is bad, is a crazy stance for government to adopt.
People aren't voting Republican or staying home bc some one occasionally sneaks a cigarette on a subway in a heavily Democratic city Matt.
x.com/samswey/status
Should the penalty be death?
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Samuel Sinyangwe
@samswey
1 in every 3 people killed by a stranger is killed by a police officer. So you might think the biggest threat to your life is some random shooter or gang. But the one organized group that is most likely to shoot and kill you is the police, and it’s not even close.
I think Chris is 100% right. We shouldn't ban smoking on a subway platform. I have ZERO issue with that person flicking that cigarette onto the tracks and potentially igniting the piles of trash that occupy the areas around the platform and causing countless delays.
Is there another desire more universal than simple public order? If you come out against it you are severely handicapping yourself!
In a way, this is why “defund the police” was such a disastrous message.
Some people consistently confuse between anarchy and civilization. Civilization can’t be built without enforced rules. And no normal people want to live in anarchy. Chris is anarchistic.
a bunch of soft pampered idiots in this thread. People who are hardened and defiant to the level of smoking on a train need to be met with an immediate police baton in the head; that is the only way they’d comply, and the only language they’ll understand
This is where “high trust society” comes into play. This is a rule, cops have better things to do, follow the rules.
The progressives’ problem is they smell a cig on subway and “rule” depends on who is the smoker. Normals don’t care who it is, rule exists or does not.
1st off, Chris hasn't taken public transportation in years. One ride on the NY subway with its repugnant smell of week would be all it took to change him. Matt's circle of folks reminds me of the 1900 courts in Europe. Thise dopes thought the ppl loved them
The real issue here is that most US police departments are so dysfunctional, racist, and incompetent that they can't be trusted with basic tasks.
Can a leopard change its spots? The far far far left has co-opted the dem party. They've literally set their sites on tearing down western civilization. Not sure you can recover from that.
Liberals became the party of stupid idiots because they don't want to do anything about crime and criminals.
Fuck the Dems and their stupidity on this issue.
Next up: Matt pushes to rethink things after NYPD subway cops choke a black man to death for resisting when they order him to put out his cigar.
If they want to make it legal, make it legal. If it’s not legal and there’s a defined process for dealing with people who break the law, including specified penalties, then those are the rules in force. This “we just won’t enforce some subset of laws” thing is stupid.