Three months ago, I wrote that one reason I was paying less attention to the online abundance debate is that I saw a clear and significant "Poster-Politician Divide."
That is: Online, the response from progressive posters to abundance has been consistently and highly negative. But if you listen to progressive politicians—Ro Khanna, Chris Murphy, Zohran, Bernie, etc—their response to the substance of the book tended to be much more positive.
Today, the NYT interviews Bernie Sanders and asks him directly what he thinks about abundance. The screenshot below is his response. You should read it all, but I'd note that the words "absolutely correct" are uttered.
I doubt Sanders is pulling punches here; he doesn't seem like that kind of guy. I think it's more likely that the reason our critique of government rings true for those closest to the levers of govt bureaucracy is that our argument is true, and those who would know best agree with us.
There's a good and necessary debate within the Democratic Party on whether its candidates should run on socialism, or economic populism, or cultural moderation, or abundance. I agree with Ezra's latest column, one message of which is: use whatever works, wherever it works.
But Abundance was never just about fine-tuning the language for the bumper stickers you use on the way to winning power. It was also about what you do if the bumper stickers work and you win. The "38 meetings" problem that Bernie identifies here is rampant throughout govt bureaucracy, but I think it really is worse within the culture of left-of-center governance. And if we suck at doing the stuff we say we're going to do everywhere we have power, people will notice. In fact, they have, and that's partly why we're in this mess.
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Many Abundance ticket items consistently fail among actual voters though, NIMBYism and anti urbanism are very well ingrained among Americans.
personally i want to devote my professional career to making true-and-good ideas more popular
"That is not an ideology, it is common sense" is a great advertisement from Bernie.
“It’s not ideology, it’s common sense.” That’s what they say when they’ve adopted your ideology!
yeah. abundance is a way for candidates to operationalize their affordability / cost of living policy goals, i don’t care if anyone runs on abundance lol.
Yes, we have to fix our social contract to earn the right to do more good with government!
I wrote about this in Positive Politics!
another reason I’m excited to read your Sanders bio: he was a local politician before he was a national one
There's the Q of what you run on and the Q of what you do when in govt. We desperately need populist reforms like M4A, Housing etc., and Bernie's whole project is building political will for those.
Will Abundance candidates embrace policies like M4A? If not, they're useless.
The "poster-politician" divide resembles many divides between folks who have and have not tried to achieve actual social progress in the material world. Those who have tend to take up a pragmatic approach, while those that haven't often favor morally pure idealism.
See
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A Useful Idiot
@AUsefuIldiot
Replying to @Timodc
Abundance isn’t an actual thing
It’s empty marketing designed to trick people in order to keep neoliberals/neocons (like you) relevant
Because the narrow policy claim of the book is kindly acknowledge, but the wider claim of it grounding a political project that addresses the current moment is laughable
Isn’t the issue that abundance is astroturf and rudderless? Yes we all know red tape needs cut to build the hospitals, and infrastructure to make the country more efficient at healing people and delivering resources in a multitude of transit methods. The pole for big tent is
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Martin Seebach
@mseebach
Increasingly, the political split isn't between left and right, it's between people who believe policy should be well-crafted to achieve its stated ends with the minimum amount of distortion, and those who just want to grand-stand and score points against their enemies. x.com/AaronLoveman/s…
Bernie’s been watching too much Netflix. Peaky Blinders or the Great British Bakeoff? What’s with all the ‘bloody’?
Im rooting for u on the abundance front man. I do think is correct that your biggest issues are going to be internal
Youre going to have to win the internal D battle that this is the attitude moving forward and it will involve a little internecine saber rattling
Nobody is for bureaucratic morasses that stifle productive and socially useful activity.
Lots of people turn out to be against specific changes to drain that proverbial swamp.
FWIW, I have experienced this disjunction regularly in the social media age...I am quoted describing some policy which very online people decry and then I go into the office and take calls all day from people who run the country on how to implement it.
Whatever works, wherever it works gets you internal party strife and the sort of cowed response the normies in both parties give to their crazy populist/ideology wing. It’s one reason why Congress is as dysfunctional as it is
Hard not to notice the gender gap here: male politicians from different camps of dem coalition (sanders/newsom/mamdani/khanna) have all voiced support for abundance in some ways. I don't see any progressive female dems (the squad? Crockett?) supporting abundance at all.
Have you MET corporate America? I think my average project for a new client, just to get the "lights turn on", is about 38 meetings. It is not a LEFT of center problem.
As Bernie says, it is a common sense problem, have you tried studying where the real roots of this are?
Maybe I just don't trust the people closest to the Abundance megaphone to actually make sure rolled back construction standards actually results in more housing and health clinics instead of more data centers and coal fired power plants.
He’s saying you don’t stand with the working class. That’s not an endorsement, Abundo Bro
not trolling: Is validation from a group of politicians > criticism from “progressive posters?”
(and why is the latter group framed pejoratively, while the former is, at worst, neutral?)
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Sanders merely saying ofc we all hate bureaucracy, but we need good governing, not handouts to private equity, investment managers and silicon valley which is what you and Klein advocate
Cool that Bernie is on board. What I feel like you gloss over is that Bernie is saying your abundance strategy doesn't do squat unless there is some actual leadership in the DNC. He is saying there hasn't been Obama. Strategy without leadership is what?
I do think that proceduralism for its own sake is kind of an ideology. “Anyone who wants to reduce regulations is a Reaganist,” etc.
Also, ideological stuff gets built into the process and sustains it. “We have to do a review to make sure this supports our diversity goals…”
These Bernie Sanders quotes illustrate a common concern about Abundance movement: it's just a new synonym for equity. Bernie is very explicit in the quote: brags about bringing money from DC to build health centers. Equity-obsessed redistribution. Not about growth in any way.
absolutely no one disagrees with you that government should work more efficiently. but then what
For this reason abundance can have more quieter influence in DC and some states versus being a voter-facing cultural force.
Housing is the issue that makes abundance relevant to voters but that’s a problem that’s highly localized and slowly solving itself.
The does the interview explain Sanders’ point in forcing a distinction between ideology and good governance?
He's saying you've stumbled upon good *management* policy, and that's great, and important, but only one piece of an actual vision a political party needs
candidly i think its because most folks haven't actually read the book
when even an author of Abundance harbors no antipathy towards Bernie…
Sanders understands you can't have Medicare for All if you can't even build a hospital.
- will you do an episode of your podcast about this? Also, what specific policies or actions had Bernie suggested or championed during his long career to eliminate this specific gridlock and achieve good governance?
JFC did you even read this beyond him saying "absolutely correct"? Of course blue state government bureaucracy is slow and inefficient. But there are no ideals involved to making that faster. Self-checkout centrism is not an ideology. There is just nothing behind it
He’s absolutely critiquing the book here. It’s just doing with through structural analysis not mean words.
Blah blah blah blah
No one believes you because you work for the magazine run by an IDF prison guard, which also coincidentally still employs David Frum.
Are there any other genocide participants there, or are the two we know about the only ones?
Maybe. But it doesn’t seem like you’re qualified to make this judgement about electeds. Have you ever worked in politics?
Your ability to identify and subsequently label phenomena is very entertaining. On par with
you guys are the most online people ever. so if other people online don’t like you… that’s a big concern lol. i could say this about the andrew cuomo campaign too but he might be even more online
Campaigns have gotten more attention because they draw a LOT more money than in the past. You hit on the point that actual governance has become so inefficient its almost easier to campaign out of power than to actually rule. I asked last yr if the pandemic changed expectations.
No one is really disagreeing with the core points of Abundance (incl. Bernie here) -- the main criticism is it ignores wealth inequality, social safety net erosion, undercutting of labor rights, etc. Critics call it repackaged tech-utopianism and I haven't heard a good counter.
His distinction between an ideology (here, something like values and ends for government) and good government (efficient means/proccess) seems productive. We can agree on core good government planks but pursue productive disagreement on broader ends/values. Reasonable! 
Abundance seems to have a blindspot within its easing regulation for building yet not having a decisive plan for co-opting the levers of government oversight. Yet another favor to developers.
I don’t know how you can read this and think it’s a glowing endorsement of Abundance and then share it like it’s a dunk on people criticizing Abundance lol
The key implication is that, just as bureaucracy isn't ideology or policy, "I'm going to eliminate bureaucracy" is not, either. It's simply a side effect of proper management and efficient governance.
The 38 meeting problem is not one that can be solved by the kind of people who comprise modern Dem staffs. They love meetings. They love being heard, gathering stakeholder input, ensuring everyone feels heard and validated. These are just not the sort of people who do things
He’s saying it’s a pedestrian non ideological observation of the need for competent governance. That it’s NOT a vision for the future, not an analysis of what’s gone wrong for the Dems, not a solution for improving ppls material conditions.
+CA and NY are deep blue!
Bro, we both know you ain’t about fighting paperwork and building things, especially if the ISPs say no on broadband
Abundance libs need to answer the question “do you have what it takes to take on the billionaire class? Are you going to stand with the working class?” Giving a deregulated siphon of cash to corporations in the hopes it trickles down to the rest of us isn’t new. It’s the same old
In Chicago, machine candidates won automatically, but were be expected to get the trash picked up, fix the streets, remove snow, not let homeless take over the ward and do great constituent services.
If we take over cities, we have to run'em. Well. Capitalism needs to flourish.
Indeed. I fully agree with the abundance agenda but totally disagree with Klein's cultural drift towards the christo-fascist right.
Well Abundance doesn't work anywhere, and Economic Populism works everywhere, so I agree with Ezra's column, let's use Populism everywhere and dump your airport book in the toilet.
Socialism only works if the money paid into the system qualitatively benefits everyone involved.
If it doesn’t actually provide tangible benefits to everyone, people stop giving money.
To everyone. Not just NGOs and various special interests.
"whether you should run on socialism, economic populism, ... or abundance" this is why people pit abundance against more popular ideologies. u guys want them to!
The government will always suck at doing the stuff they say they're going to do everywhere. Bloated bureaucracies don't solve problems, they create them. Reagan was right. “The nine most terrifying words in the English language are 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'”
hey man mainly people are just tired of people like you, talking around the point while pretending you're right. no one wants to hear from you.
"Abundance" is just a desperate attempt resell the neoliberalism that got us into our current dystopian nightmare in the first place.
I’m not sure how you came to this conclusion based on what you linked
Bernie doesn’t want an oligarch centric approach like the abundance movement wanted lol
Abundance gentrifies greed & buries the fatal economic & social consequences of it in the misdirection of pop-psych manifestation, scented-candle & Sunday Times liberalism of Klein. But at foundation, Abundance robs the Public Trust by weaponizing human desperation. Sanders knows
oh come on that's not the part of abundance that "progressive posters" have an issue with and you know it
lol. He says you’re “absolutely correct” about one obvious thing and then says he doesn’t need your lecture about it and you decide to quote the “absolutely correct” part like it’s an endorsement of the book
there is a middle class of interests that do represent and rent seek of the 38 meetings.
Abundance is just repackaged Reaganomics
Bitching about Job Killing Regulations
is one of its hallmarks
This isn't a debate on the left; it's a rejection
Why look for approval from the left when Abundance offers the working class nothing?
Go away
So the Democratic Party politicians will say anything that might sell without worrying about ever actually delivering on their promises? Sounds like nothing will fundamentally change.
Did you read the entire quote that you yourself posted? I refer you to “that is not an ideology”
Taking Bernie saying that the bureaucracy is horrible into an endorsement of Abundance is big reach, Derek.
Did you even read your own screenshot? He's saying the exact same thing as we are online. He dissed you and you didnt even realize because your reading comprehension is terrible. You are not smart and it is quite evident from this.
Counterpoint: bureaucracy that gets in the way of capital getting everything it wants is fine and nothing to worry about
Technically a lot of that "bureaucracy" is to shore up neoliberalism, and placate the right wing, while pretending the rich, and business interests, have not made it more difficult.
Democrats control the majority of these bureaucracies. It will be difficult for them to reform them for several reasons:
Public sector unions: Democrats rely on them to win elections. They are dedicated to maximum headcount & hours.
Inclusiveness: Expansive "stakeholder"
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For the 1000th time, you do not hold a monopoly on thinking there's too much bureaucracy in government.
But the only regulations you care about are the ones protecting working people from big money, not the ones hurting them. Not shocking given the money behind Abundance.
just have the Govt As Developer in the physical world and not just be a Vector of Corruption into the social world....
build more so we can have a rental society is a shitty destination.....
It’s super funny when ppl that write for a living are clearly fucking functionally illiterate.
Did you miss his fucking point? It’s that you’re not calling for anything that anyone doesn’t already understand. And you haven’t called for any changes to that structure.
You don’t have an ideology. You have an empty neoliberal platform. Congrats, Ross Perot.
Very funny to see you guys move the goalposts from "getting rid of regulations will solve almost all major problems" to "getting rid of regulations can help out with some supply things!"
Me: “Stay close.”
Friend: runs off.
Game: squad deleted.
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