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Many of my more leftist friends (and frenemies) have pushed me on whether Abundance has โ€œa theory of power.โ€ I often say it does โ€” but theyโ€™re not going to like it. And thatโ€™s in part because its theory of power is liberal rather than populist.
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David Watson ๐Ÿฅ‘
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And its theory of politics โ€” to take this a bit further โ€” is that part of how you win credibility with voters is by showing you see the failures and problems of your own side, not just the other side.
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If you can't see that at this point the two enemies are the billionaires and fascists then you're never gonna see it. Come on my show and debate this. The abundance 'welcomefest' was a union-bashing, left-bashing bonanza. If you were principled you'd be calling them out for that.
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But what about China, Ezra....you seem to uncritically accept some of the arguments here on Great Power Competition...which work to undermine the theory of Abundance....sounds like a podcast....
I really appreciate you articulating this and I think yourโ€™s is a mature perspective on power. I do think, from time to time, individuals come along who are capable of wisely administering power, but they are rare. And, as you put, no reservoir of power is safe from corruption.
The way the Scarcity Left has the effrontery โ€” the bare faced cheek โ€” to insist that they know how to properly model power, when their model boils down to "black, gay unions = good", is a fucking joke It's Abundance that actually manages to model how HOAs influence policy by
The Abundance Movement is unpopular with most voters because it carries the same elitist flavor that their constituents hate. The establishment has drifted so far away from being the party of the working class. They lean more on supply side economics and deregulation as a
The problem with this view is that it's an easy one for a rich, privileged dude to have. Of course, you'd downplay morality when people like you aren't the ones who are crushed under the weight of compromise as sacrificial lambs. That's reserved for the poor.
There is no such thing as a โ€œpopulistโ€ theory of power. There are structural theories of power and there is a goofy market theory of interest groups
In otherwards, you're still stuck in the late 2000's when you're entire society has moved on and away from its dogmas. Honestly, I wish you would do more than simply try to reinvent liberalism in an age when its been thoroughly discredited due to the hardening of so many
What does theory of power even mean? That they believe electoral democracy (power resides in the electorate) to be a sham?
The difference between when Clinton and even Obama were in office is that we've had the largest transfer of wealth in human history. The only abundance that's available is the abundance of wealth that a small portion of people are hoarding. This is late-stage capitalism to a tee
This view of power per is not even so much necessarily โ€œliberalโ€ rather than โ€œpopulist,โ€ though it may correlate with those labels. Itโ€™s even more deeply Augustinian rather than Rousseauianโ€”and empirical instead of inane. In other words, itโ€™s how the grown-ups (ie,
I agree with this - the problem is that "liberals" throughout the Western world themselves perverted this very thought. This should incentivice civilizing political power by putting a limiting procedural corset of constraints around the use of political power. But by
This is you theory of power described "neatly"? ๐Ÿ˜‚ Even more neatly would be "power corrupts". But this is at odds with your lifetime of advocating for increased government power (and resources) for failed efforts to fix various problems. When the obvious solution is less
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Yes we know your theory of power is to coddle billionaires and cozy up to democratic party elites. That's what you have done your entire career!
The fact you name checked Bill Clinton and Barack Obama kind of gives away that its neo liberalism you are talking about not โ€œclassicalโ€ liberalism.
I feel like what you say here is so obvious that it's hard to imagine anybody with a modicum of intelligence and reason disagreeing with it. And yet some people do! "There are good and bad people in the world. Good people have good goals and are united, bad people have bad
Marxists are naive utopian useful idiots who don't understand 2nd order effects, aid enemies, inadvertantly โฌ‡๏ธegalitarianism Tudeh and MEK help Islamist lRGC come to power. KDP help the Nazis. Nationalist Stalin takes over from Utopian Lenin Utopian Maoism becomes Fascist Chicom
Again with the Bill Clinton campaign worship.
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Ollie
@olzhu
I wouldnโ€™t mind if Democrats try to distance themselves from some of the current culture war stuff but why do we assume that anything Clinton did was electorally effective? He won 43% of the vote in a bizarre 3-way race with Bush and Perot. x.com/_rotimia/statuโ€ฆ
The issue isn't the theory of power, it's the theory of politics. That's what seems to be absent (or covered over if it's there). You obviously don't win back the WC midwest with coastal housing breakthroughs.
This is just charisma analysis. Abundance is Clinton lite, Obama was the beginning of the end of abundance. They luterally have nothing in common.
At our inaugural convention, John Dougall (Utah State Auditor) gave his keynote speech on the "3 languages of politics" which is very helpful for understanding the narrative/lens that different people view the world and their policy preferences. Liberalism = Freedom
As an observer of this debate, I think a main sticking point here is that your opponents do not think Obamaโ€™s presidency was a success.
In general, we need less โ€œtheoryโ€ to understand the world. Power isnโ€™t an abstraction in need of a perfect framework. Itโ€™s a dynamic playing out on micro and macros scales. Current manifestations map to historical parallels, and our language should be kept specific and empirical.
Iโ€™m glad to hear! The โ€œtankiesโ€ will be disappointed. Now, work with libertarian Arnold Kling, whose โ€œThree Languages of Politicsโ€ is a fine erisology (study of disagreements), and you might be able to market it to big-tent Republicans as well as libertarian liberals.
You need to test people a bit harder on whether they've read your book, when you do interviews. You get a lot of questions that are explained pretty thoroughly - across several chapters - in the book. It's incredibly obvious that many haven't even given it a cursory glance.
Wow, worked out well for you that this โ€œtheory of powerโ€ is precisely what billionaires would prescribe (and indeed have since founding the DLC 30 years ago). Wouldโ€™ve been very awkward for you and the NYT crowd if class politics were more effective. Whew! Dodged a bullet there!
The weirdest thing about the passage quotes here is that much of Abundance is an argument for unshackling government for good -- and the book came out at the exact point in American history when government unshackling is being used for unprecedentedly evil ends.
Power today is expressed most emphatically through economic inequity (class difference); as Foucault proposed, power is a social relation, and todayโ€™s social frictions are often governed by class/economic differences. Wealth tends to have a way of glossing over other differences.
Liberalism is the best argument for controlled semi-benign soft power there is. The other examples inevitably and nearly immediately overreach and only descend further into authoritarianism whereas liberalism has stability so long as the population is educated enough.
Youโ€™re conflating classical liberalism/libertarianism with liberalism as defined by most Americans. The latter, at its best in New Deal & Great Society eras, WAS populist. It was pro-labor and often hostile to the corporate interests/oligarchs Abundance courts.
As far as I understood it, your book makes the strong argument for liberals to think about public infrastructure instead of redistribution only. This kind of argument, no matter if one agrees with it or not, *does not need* a theory of power.
Abundance is using a hammer when you need a small screwdriver. Improving efficiency provides you distributable elegant solutions. Solutions that are pleasing, graceful, stylish, clean and affordable. Don't roal coal.
George Soros may have better politics than Elon Musk, but ultimately neither should have more political influence than an average American.
Ezra, abundance just isnโ€™t nearly as popular of a policy to beat Republicans. The answer is staring you right in the face, and itโ€™s populism.
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Axios
@axios
Poll: Democratic voters prefer "populism" over "abundance" trib.al/3zUyvIU
Your theory of power is power can always be mishandled, so we shouldn't demonize all corporations, BUT that power be used in worse ways than other ways. Ok, true, awesome. Now can you understand that corporations wield power in a worse way than unions, non-profits, and local...
Here we have rhetorical flourishes, high felutant phrases that hint at insights. Yet no substance or clarity delivered. Didn't rtfa because nothing of any meaning was encoded here. This is very standard output per design of ivy league rhetorical education.
Eric, you do know that people were alive during Obamaโ€™s presidencies, right? It seems like you are trying to make it seem like your audience arenโ€™t aware of its failure to even address tent pole campaign promises. The โ€team of rivalsโ€œ thing is still common knowledge.
lol. Iโ€™ve never seen this many words put into saying LITERALLY nothing. My theory of power? Well, politics isnโ€™t a morality playโ€ฆ to get things done you need human power but also the kind of power that Obama and Bill Clinton had. Friends, enemies, uh issues. Letting her rip.
โ€œThere are often different corporations on different sides of the same issue. There are often different unions on different sides of the same issue.โ€ Iโ€™m cherry-picking this part of the nothing-burger this entire post is, thereโ€™s nothing substantive here. Pointless, circular talk
This theory relies on the idea that "reservoirs of power" randomly decide to change what they believe in and do not have incentive structures that determine their interests overall. For example corporations have one incentive structure: profits. They will never side against that.
I still remember when you said that you had an personality type usually associated with right wingers, an authoritarian parenting style - makes sense given how much of a syncopant you are for established power.
Strange. I've been told time and time again that your book was simply policy advocacy. So much that I've considered I was schizo. Thanks for confirming my suspicions!
The people who abuse power donโ€™t do so because they are corporations, or because theyโ€™re law-enforcement, or because theyโ€™re republicans, or because they have inherited wealth (although members of each group may do so), they abuse power primarily because theyโ€™re powerful.
That's not a theory of power; that's just describing managing interests--with absolutely no attention to their history or how they came to be in relation to each other. The "left" critique is not about morality, but that you have a pedestrian understanding of how power functions.
There's no such thing as democracy without populism or ignoring public opinion. Instead in the West, we see that the elites manipulate ordinary people in what is called "managed democracy", which has the outward appearance of democracy, but the rich really run policy.
I wish you liberals would drop your purity tests and embrace pragmatism. We need to win elections to get anything done.
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I donโ€™t think Iโ€™d say I โ€œdislikeโ€ this, I just think itโ€™s very dumb and tells us basically nothing about power. Youโ€™re clearly trying to dumbfound ppl into backing a strain of anti politics your corporate backers can live with. They arenโ€™t biting because they arenโ€™t stupid.
That's a lot verbiage to say your main goal is union busting. I can tell you that us union construction workers aren't going to work for less. There will be no construction without us. And our work is skilled, you're not just going to bring in schumcks off the street to scab.
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